Educate me please....

[Rav]

Ok, I know that the Alpina brand is special with a limited run of rare cars.

However, I was reading the Pistonheads E46 M3 report and noted that the equivalent of my car has 343 bhp with a n/a 3.2 litre engine. Now i was under the impression that the B3 was the thinking mans M3, basically a luxury M3. But I have at least 50 bhp less than the M3.
How is this the case if the B3 has 100cc more engine capacity?



The pistonheads report is here: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-buy ... uide/25931

So what makes this engine special, and why do people want this in kit cars etc?

[Yad3100]

Ok, I know that the Alpina brand is special with a limited run of rare cars.

However, I was reading the Pistonheads E46 M3 report and noted that the equivalent of my car has 343 bhp with a n/a 3.2 litre engine. Now i was under the impression that the B3 was the thinking mans M3, basically a luxury M3. But I have at least 50 bhp less than the M3.
How is this the case if the B3 has 100cc more engine capacity?



The pistonheads report is here: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-buy ... uide/25931

So what makes this engine special, and why do people want this in kit cars etc?

Rav
It all about the spec. The S52 has different internals, cam profiles and induction and exhaust. Significantly it has throttle bodies rather than an induction manifold with a single inlet point. This means the engine has one inlet per cylinder which allows it to breath better, more air, means more fuel, a bigger bang, more power. The exhaust is also tubular, again individual ports for each cylinder, as the gases go down the system the size increases as the pipes come together. This creates a vacuum that makes the gases flow faster, called the scavenge effect.

The cam profiles also add to this effect of the breathing both in and out.

All in the s52 breathes much better and revs further 8000 rpm, so it creates much more power higher in the Rev range.

The S series engines are generally the pinnacle of NA tuning for BMW and the old measure was 100bhp per litre.

Hope this helps

[Yad3100]

I should also say that the torque curves will be different, the large capacity alpina M52 will be more likely to produce more torque in the lower Rev range. This means that they are easier to drive on a daily basis.

Anyone who has driven a multi carb car with a race cam makes it very frustrating to drive in traffic, perfect on a race track when your revs are always high.

You could say that the alpina has been engineered to be user friendly and more comfortable than the M3, it was also available in more body shapes.

[Charles]

Adam has explained that well.

I would add, however, that where the M3 is about power, the equivalent Alpina is about torque, particularly lower down the rev range.

In a straight line, the M3 will beat a B3/B3S but put them on the twisty bits and it's a very different story

[hap]

I know from real world am m3 cs couldn’t shake me off his boot lid on a twisty country road, I wasn’t going to put my car in a hedge he clearly knew the undulations and bends but any gain he made I caught it up coming out of bends and chasing him down

[Rav]

Thanks all. Lots of knowledge on this forum. I need to drive my car more. The lockdown has meant that I have driven less than 100 miles since the start of lockdown, with the only exception being the trip to BMR and back.

When i drive the car, i care nothing of M3s, Lamborghinis, McLarens - Its about me and the Alpina. However, as i haven't driven her at all, i start to sway...

[Yad3100]

We could also mention fuel economy. More power means it uses more fuel, so we would expect that the alpina would be better every day.

Charles; In terms of the handling, the Ms are sublime, the difference between them and a normal BMW is the front end grip and positive turn in. I haven’t driven an alpina of a similar body style and I would expect the ride to be so much better, but at the limit, I think the M would be faster point to point. The difference would be condition of the roads and in the wet I would expect the alpina to be quicker. This is of course an opinion until someone lets we loose with their car

[Yad3100]

Thanks all. Lots of knowledge on this forum. I need to drive my car more. The lockdown has meant that I have driven less than 100 miles since the start of lockdown, with the only exception being the trip to BMR and back.

When i drive the car, i care nothing of M3s, Lamborghinis, McLarens - Its about me and the Alpina. However, as i haven't driven her at all, i start to sway...

Sorry, when you have been tuning, modifying and maintaining cars for over 30 years you tend to pick up some stuff.

Get yourself to a bmw club track day and learn to drive it quickly in relative safety.

[Yad3100]

I know from real world am m3 cs couldn’t shake me off his boot lid on a twisty country road, I wasn’t going to put my car in a hedge he clearly knew the undulations and bends but any gain he made I caught it up coming out of bends and chasing him down

Cars are not fast, drivers are!

[churchie386]

The petrolhead father of a school friend would often quote, "Power for show, torque for go!" (or something like that).

It made sense to me as an engineer, but it wasn't until I started driving cars with turbocharged engines that I really got what he meant.

[Charles]

The petrolhead father of a school friend would often quote, "Power for show, torque for go!" (or something like that)

From experience, I think this answers your question Adam. With full torque available from 2000rpm, the Alpina will always pull out of corners quicker and unless there is a very long straight that an M3 could make full use of its power, then it will struggle to get away "point to point".

I've never driven an M3 but I've followed one very closely over a couple of miles of twisty stuff and ended up chatting to the very confused driver who couldn't understand why his superior powered coupe couldn't lose my shopping trolley.

I also remember fondly being driven round Donington by Willy Green in my car as Frank Sytner tried - but failed - to get past in his E30 M3 race car. Should have seen his face when he stormed up to us in the pits, only to be asked by Willy "Can't keep up with an estate car, Frank?". Two weeks later at Le Mans and Willy was regaling J Herbert and S Moss with the same story.

Happy days!

[ali]

My reply last night seems to have vanished?
Went something like this.
I ran an E46 M3 beside my Alpina B3 3.3 wagon for 18 months and pretty much agree fully with what other memebers have said on here.
To get the best out the M3 you have to keep it on the boil and the sound of the S54 at 7500 rpm is epic, especially in combination with a manual box. However with the firmer handling and noise it isn't the most family orientated machine.
That is when I'd jump in the B3 for family jaunts and use the low down torque for effortless speed with a whole lot less drama and mich more comfort. 2 different beasts for 2 different purposes.

[Cygnet]

I have an E46 M3 (manual) on its way to me very soon so will be able to make my own comparisons. I liked most things about the B3s except one in particular - the auto gearbox. I just couldn’t get on with it and felt the car would be so much better as a manual, but I know that’s personal choice and some will prefer the auto.

[Yad3100]

The petrolhead father of a school friend would often quote, "Power for show, torque for go!" (or something like that)

From experience, I think this answers your question Adam. With full torque available from 2000rpm, the Alpina will always pull out of corners quicker and unless there is a very long straight that an M3 could make full use of its power, then it will struggle to get away "point to point".

I've never driven an M3 but I've followed one very closely over a couple of miles of twisty stuff and ended up chatting to the very confused driver who couldn't understand why his superior powered coupe couldn't lose my shopping trolley.

I also remember fondly being driven round Donington by Willy Green in my car as Frank Sytner tried - but failed - to get past in his E30 M3 race car. Should have seen his face when he stormed up to us in the pits, only to be asked by Willy "Can't keep up with an estate car, Frank?". Two weeks later at Le Mans and Willy was regaling J Herbert and S Moss with the same story.

Happy days!

There are a lot of factors, chassis, tyres, brakes, engine torque and power curves and they generally come together as “feel” the more confidence you have in the car the more you will extend its performance. It is not about numbers, which many get preoccupied by.

[Yad3100]

I have an E46 M3 (manual) on its way to me very soon so will be able to make my own comparisons. I liked most things about the B3s except one in particular - the auto gearbox. I just couldn’t get on with it and felt the car would be so much better as a manual, but I know that’s personal choice and some will prefer the auto.

Please consider recoding the traction control system to the latter CSL/CS logic, it is much better it doesn’t intervene as much and gives a better feel on the limit. I got mine done by a guy on Cutters and it transformed the car for fast road. I’m not sure that you can do it with the early cars but the LCI had the same modules as the CSL.