B5 winter wheels and tyres story

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Kyle
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B5 winter wheels and tyres story

Post by Kyle » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:25 am

I've noted a number of threads on the forums regarding winter wheels and tyres.

I've been on a bit of a "journey" on the subject this winter and thought I'd try to centralise and impart some of the knowledge that I picked up.
I hope its insightful and comes in useful in future!

Having some relaxing personal time on my hands, it nice to be able to give back to the community in this way. If you spot any errors or augmentations, drop a reply and I'll update!

I've had a decent amount of driving experience with winter and summer tyres in winter conditions so I've a good feel for the difference between the two on varying vehicles.
Over the years, I've been in some dangerously precarious situations with wide summer tyres in winter conditions which I don't ever want to repeat.

<b>P's and C's</b>
Here is the main winter wheel/tyre P&C list, please feel free to augment/correct this!

Pro's
  • Improved water evacuation
  • Improved wet traction
  • Reduced aquaplaning tendency
  • Improved snow/slush evacuation
  • Improved snow traction
  • Improved ice grip
  • Lower operating temperature
  • Potentially improved comfort due to tyre wall height
  • Potentially increase lifetime of summer tyres
Con's
  • Reduced dry traction
  • Potentially worse economy, more rolling resistance? Urban myth?
  • Potentially increased body roll due to tyre wall height
  • Limited top speed
Some great tyre resources I picked up: Our UK RHD Alpina was re-imported to Germany in 2009. Due to stringent German law, you have to use the exact OEM specification tyres and rims or you can get in trouble with the police and invalidate your insurance. In DE the permissible wheels and tyres are written in the official car registration certificate.
In DE, No doubt you can add additional options legally (e.g. 20") however I'd wager new rims and tyres would have to equal the same rolling radii as the OEM specs.

As far as we've researched, there is no specific law in Germany that enforce the use of winter tyres. However there are some counties that can be funny about it and can slap heavy fines on motorists that are endangering other road users/pedestrians with inappropriate tyres for the conditions. Not to mention that it can totally invalidate your insurance. If you have a bump and investigation deems it could of avoided with more appropriate tyres, your insurance can refuse to support you.
Generally motorists in DE keep a set of summer rims and a set of commonly steel rims with winter rubber that get fitted when the temps start to drop.

For the E60 B5 there are limited rim options because of the truck sized discs and calipers from the B7 and 760Li.
19" and 18" rims are our current options, with the following rim/tyre combos. Of course I wouldn't want to fit steal rims, even if I could!
I've built this info up with help from my Father, my owners book, Alpina DE and UK clarifications, extensive web research incl. this forum and speaking with others.

<b>19" Winter option</b>
4x 19" x 8.5J rims with 245/40 R19 98V+ XL rubber
Note that the summer staggered setup isn't permissible here, I've confirmed this with Alpina DE.
I'm guessing the main reason is because its near impossible the get winter rubber at 275/35 100Y XL.

<b>18" Winter option</b>
4x 18" x 8J rims with 245/45 R18 100V+ XL rubber

As mentioned anything outside these specs with our DE registration and insurance would give us major issues.
This makes tyre choice a little tricky.

<b>19" Complications</b>
First we'd need to find/buy two 19" 8.5J rims. New, prices seem to start around 1,350 EUR / 1,200 GBP for a pair.
Finding <i>cost effective</i> winter rubber at 245/40 is near impossible.
As clarified by Alpina DE, The only worthwhile 19" consideration is the Dunlop SP WinterSport M3 New, prices seem to start around 1,100 EUR / 1,000 GBP for a set of 4.
The next issue is trying to find stock of the Dunlop SP WinterSport M3... As of writing officially this size isn't stocked/shipped to UK/IE. If your outside the mainland EU, shipping is the only option. This brings in the "Who will fit them" complication.
I have found other 19" tyre options to spec but cost and stock availability make it prohibitive.
We looked at Vredestein Wintrac Extreme, very promising but don't have the spec we need. Nearly bought a set of 19's for the summer staggered set up when we realised that they were not legally permissible.
So for new Alpina recommended kit, minimum spend around 2,450 EUR / 2,200 GBP

<b>18" Simplifications</b>
The 18" option does make things considerably simpler.
In comparison to the 19" option, there is a massive range of to spec winter tyres available.
So, first you need to find some 18" rims, if you asked Alpina to supply you with a complete winter wheel and tyre package you'd be looking at cool 3,485 EUR / 3,150 GBP.
If you went to an after market supplier for 4 authentic Alpina rims, new, start around 1,800 EUR / 1,600 GBP.
Alpina recommended tyres for 18's, new, start around 900 EUR / 800 GBP.
Other performance options, new, start around 800 EUR / 700 GBP.
So for new Alpina recommended kit, minimum spend around 2,700 EUR / 2,400 GBP.


<b>B5 specific conclusions</b>
If you only have staggered 19" rims and want to use 19" and follow Alpina's recommendations, you'd need to procure 2x 8.5J rims and 4x 245/40 tyres. New, this starts around 2,450 EUR / 2,200 GBP.
Trying to find 19" staggered to spec winter tyres is like looking for hens teeth up the backside of a rocking horse! If you did find something, you'd be starting around 1,100 EUR / 1,000 GBP.
19" tyre replacement cost is always going to be higher due to the size.

18" are the way to go imho, the narrowest you can get. Tyre choice and price range is wide and replacement cost is less than 19".

<b>General conclusions</b>
As a general rule, the narrower tyre contact surface, the more cutting traction it will achieve in snow/ice conditions.
As a rule winter tyres enter there optimal performance temperature quicker, well suited for winter temps.
In theory the investment of a winter wheel set should extend the lifetime of summer tyres, long term cost saving.

The Pro's list above really shows that if the conditions deem it and if you can, running winters makes a lot of sense for year round optimal traction.

<b>Personal Choice</b>
Given that our B5 does a fair bit of Pan-European cruising year round and we often spend XMAS with German family. Winter tyres wheels and tyres make a lot of sense for us.
I went hunting for a second hand set of 18" Classics and with the help of Alpina DE and bit of luck I found some going for decent money in DE.

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Post by Simon1397 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:20 am

useful bit of info, what did you fit in the end?
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Post by Kyle » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:55 am

Simon1397 wrote:useful bit of info, what did you fit in the end?
Lucked out and found a second hand, new condition set of 18" Classics clad with Michelin Alpin PA2 rubber in Germany.

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Post by dodgyken » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:54 pm

Kyle - to add to this.

In terms of legality you are not obliged to run winter tyres anywhere in Europe. HOWEVER if you are involved in an accident where normall you wouldn't be at fault the police may apportion blame to you if you are on summer tyres - in winter conditions. Additionally your insurance company may choose not to pay out due to you not ensuring that your car is prepared for the prevailing conditions.

It is the latter bit that is crucial. You are obliged to ensure your vehicle is safe and prepared for the conditions - in using summer tyres in winter conditions you may not be.

In terms of tyre performance - the ballpark figure is that even in the dry below 7c winter tyres will out perform summer tyres - the quoted figure is 14m on a 60-0mph test - although I can't recall the temperature this was tested at.

The Roadster will get winter tyres next year - but will live without them (and stay in the garage) this winter.

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Post by olli » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:02 pm

Your pro's are not really correct.
Due to a winter tyre being constructed to have maximum effect on snow and ice, it has a longer wet braking distance and much less lateral aquaplaning stability, so is NOT really better in wet conditions. This obviously counts in like for like size. The ADAC has elaborated on that quite a few times in winter tyre tests. This gets much worse, usually, with cheaper winter tyres.
Upgrading wheels and tyres normally doea involve using similar rolling radius.
All you need in Germany for entering it into Brief and Schein, is the wheels to have a type approval (TUV Gutachten) and get it sorted at a TUV testing station. Nevertheless, as you said, it is much more difficult than here.

Also the "car having to be fit for purpose" is he same for all Bundeslaender (counties), iirc. It's Euro 20,- if you are caught without causing any trouble and Euor 40,- if you e.g. block others due to being stuck. As said above, the insurance implications are worse than the tickets, as you are guaranteed at least a high percentage partial blame.

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Post by Geoff » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:29 pm

Another con is trying to finding somewhere to store four bloody great big 19" rims for four months without damaging them :lol:
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Post by B10BRW » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:32 am

Geoff wrote:Another con is trying to finding somewhere to store four bloody great big 19" rims for four months without damaging them :lol:
Stick them in the boot of the Merc :wink: :D

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Post by dodgyken » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:12 am

Geoff wrote:Another con is trying to finding somewhere to store four bloody great big 19" rims for four months without damaging them :lol:
Most of us who live in civilised countries have underground parking AND a good size cellar - and some also have a "bastelraum" (hobby room - or for me storage).

Mind you I am keeping 3 spare sets of wheels in my workshop with the racecar at the moment as well :D :D :D

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Post by Geoff » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:54 pm

B10BRW wrote:
Geoff wrote:Another con is trying to finding somewhere to store four bloody great big 19" rims for four months without damaging them :lol:
Stick them in the boot of the Merc :wink: :D
No that wouldn't work, I've just had a look and I'd struggle to get one in :roll:
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Post by Geoff » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:44 pm

dodgyken wrote:
Geoff wrote:Another con is trying to finding somewhere to store four bloody great big 19" rims for four months without damaging them :lol:
Most of us who live in civilised countries have underground parking AND a good size cellar - and some also have a "bastelraum" (hobby room - or for me storage).

Mind you I am keeping 3 spare sets of wheels in my workshop with the racecar at the moment as well :D :D :D
Which civilised country is that then dodgy?
B3 BiTurbo Coupe (#104)
B10 3.3 (#055) Sold
Austin Healey 3000 BT7 (Sold)

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Post by alpina46 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:15 pm

That would be Switzerland :roll:
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Post by Kyle » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:17 pm

@dodgyken, Thx for the heads up. I'll have a Google around a see if I can find any decent winter vs. summer tests worthy of referencing.

@olli, Thx for the info regarding TUV Gutachten etc. Very helpful. I will add update this section in my post.

@olli, handy info regarding the fine information! I wasn't aware of the exact specifics. I'll quote you on this if you don't mind? Maybe you have an official link to this info online?

@Geoff, haha, worthy of a mention! I'll add it!
I'll also answer the question if 19"s with rubber can be transported easily in a B5. I'll need to check manually at some point in the future.


@olli, personally I cannot wholly agree with you regarding wet condition performance but I will definitely make some clarifications/caveats in my post to reflect the areas you draw in to question! Thanks for the feedback! I'll update that ASAP.
I will also check online to see if there are any vs. tests worth citing/linking.

One clarification/caveat, I was speaking in terms of ultra high performance winters and summers. Which do, from my limited experience and knowledge perform around the same, winters being slightly better than in terms of wet traction and evacuation. Especially at 245+ widths.
I cannot comment about other performance categories tyres.
Check our the following two tables, currently ordered by aquaplaning resistance:
Performance Winters
Performance Summers

Ordering by overall category performance and adding the top 10 tyres performance values together for aquaplaning and wet traction:
Summers: 168 (43,418,602 reported miles)
Winters: 173 (18,638,286 reported miles)

Those results match my personal experience. Those ratings are based on real world, real people input over large numbers of miles. I'd say that they give a good idea of tyre tendencies.

Do feel free to give me more input on your winter/summer experience and test data... so I can cite it and consider it too!

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Post by Charles » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:51 am

Kyle wrote: Check our the following two tables, currently ordered by aquaplaning resistance:
Performance Winters
Looks like I made the right choice for my winter tyres then :D

I'll start reporting back once my blood alcohol level has dropped down to an acceptable point post Christmas/New Year
Charles
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Post by olli » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:35 am

annual German automobile club winter tyre test.
Not all, but a rather representative selection and tested in 205/55/16
Unfortunately in German, but should be rather easily read
http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/W ... eID=268552

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size

Post by gazoo » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:17 pm

Sorry for the newbie question, but is it safe to put 18" wheels on the B5?

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