Clutch Judder Experiences and Latest Information

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IAM Joe
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Clutch Judder Experiences and Latest Information

Post by IAM Joe » Wed May 09, 2012 2:48 pm

Just thought I’d share my experience relating to the dreaded clutch judder many owners have/are experiencing. Sorry for the long post but I’ve tried to explain enough so it may be of use to others in the future.

I’ve trawled the internet for many years now reading about this issue, its causes and possible miracle fixes. I won't bore you with my limited physics and stroboscope knowledge (we have Ade for that) :lol: but have a reasonable understanding why it happens. I believe it's all to do with resonance interference and frequency of the engine in relation to the transmission causing harmonious interference (clutch judder) in certain situations. However, there are two causes of ‘clutch judder’. Here's my personal account and understanding of both types and the latest information I know of to date.

Not long after I bought the car, I started to experience the clutch slipping (juddering) first thing on the odd morning when certain environmental parameters occurred. Usually when the temperature was fairly low, mildly damp atmospheric conditions and a cold engine. The car had only covered 19687 miles. After reading up on the possible causes, I got the car booked into Sytner Sheffield for them to take a look (July 2009). As the car was just out of warranty (Alpina only covered by 2 a year warranty) I was very much at the mercy of BMW/Sytner as to who would pay for this to be fixed.

I agreed for this to be investigated (at my cost) and the clutch/gearbox stripped down. As suspected from my research, the diagnosis confirmed a faulty seal on the dual mass flywheel (DMF) which allowed fluid to seep onto the clutch plate and cause slippage until it burnt off after the first couple of starts. As this was a known fault, I had the clutch and flywheel assembly supplied and paid for as goodwill from BMW. Sytners footed half the bill for labour so I paid a substantially smaller fee for the work and as I’d contributed towards the work, was still covered by the parts warranty. I recall when I collected the car, I asked if it was a permanent fix or would it happen again. I was told (off the record) that cars had been known to re-visit several times for clutch replacement (this didn’t really fill me with much confidence but was appreciative of the honesty). I couldn’t fault Sytners and their service was first class.

The clutch operation felt perfect for a couple of weeks, like a new car. A joy to drive but the dreaded judder soon returned. However, this time it was more sporadic and would happen at different times, not first thing on a morning when the engine was cold. Now it would happen especially when starting to move off an incline in 1st or reverse gear, particularly violent at times.

Further reading into this, I soon came across many instances of this occurring not only in BMW/Alpina cars but over a broad range of manufacturers and vehicles. The common theme was the DMF. Why was such a poor design allowed to occur and be so common through so many differing vehicles/manufacturers. I initially thought and read that it was only a problem on the 4 pot diesels but have heard a few examples on the 6-ers too, although I haven’t read many cases and this may be the oil seal issue on the dual mass flywheel (as per my original clutch issue).

Over the last 7+ years, BMW released several 'software fixes' which basically raised the revs when engaging first or reverse gear which just made you ride the clutch more (and burn the clutch worse) and made it sound like you had terrible clutch control. I'd refused to get the software fix applied to the car as I always knew it was a mechanical fault and this was just a mask of the real issue. I believe this has been an issue since the later E46 models with the M47 engine.

I'd read elsewhere (E90 forum) of a new clutch assembly BMW have been developing and released earlier this year (2012) which is meant to totally eliminate the clutch judder issue. In February this year, BMW launched a new clutch assembly which finally seemed to have eliminated the fault from reading experiences from people who’ve had it fitted. Great! I thought, finally a permanent fix to this annoyance, where do I sign up!

Over the last couple of weeks I’ve been speaking to Sytners again about the ongoing issue. Although a well documented problem on internet forums, there is a bit of a hush hush approach from BMW (and presume other manufacturers) on this. BMW would never do an official recall, it would cost them millions!

From my discussions with Sytner (Sheffield) about the problem I have been told the following:

The new clutch assembly is only available on cars fitted with the N47 engine (later model)

The D3 MT has the older M47 engine of which there is and planned to be no revised clutch assembly produced.

Sytners have, as ever been very helpful in looking into the possibilities and options I have but this basically means either living with the occasional frustration of dealing with the judder when it occurs, or shelling out and getting the clutch replaced at a cost each time (indefinitely). I’d expect BMW may provide another clutch assembly FOC but it’s a lottery as to whether this would fix the issue, it’d last as long/short before reoccurring or return worse than before.

As it is a very occasional problem on my car I’m tempted to say live with it and be glad it’s not worse. However, when it does occur, the whole driving experience of what is a wonderful car is overshadowed by an inherent design fault which BMW don’t seem to want to address.

I’ll see what options Sytner come back to me with and take a commercial view to see if it’s worth the expense.

So some good news if you’re running the N47 engine, not so good for the M47 owners. :roll:

Again, sorry for the long post but this may be useful to someone if not a record for myself (and get it off my chest) :wink:

P.S - Nearly forgot to add as it's often linked when reading about this issue. Removing the clutch delay valve makes no difference to this problem, trust me.
Joe

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Good write-up, Joe. You know I can't resist don't you :wink:

So, my 2p-worth for what it matters....and yes, I'm sure it's boring, but maybe enlightening :lol:

The cause of the judder (ie the non-seal-leak side of things) is a 'hotspot' which forms on the clutch plates. The hotspot cause isn't totally apparent to me, I'm afraid, so don't ask for specifics there. If I had a clutch assembly to inspect, I'd get it, no doubt, as it is my main field of knowledge. However, my strong assumption is a very slight misalignment occurs between the clutch faces on occasion (most probably due to some slight freedom in the mechanism), and that causes a hotspot as the plate (could be either one) makes a hard contact with its opposing number in a discrete position on its face (most probably at its high spot - but not guaranteed for dynamic reasons). Anyway, the hotspot causes a 'raise' in the clutch plate surface in this localised area, then as you continue to engage the clutch, the hotspot spins and catches the high spot of the opposing plate (note:- all discs and rotating bodies have a high spot - it just varies in magnitude and postition from one machined structure to the next). The catch and release of the 2 plates causes the springs (the drive-dampers if you like) mounted behind the 'driving plate', ie engine-side plate, to oscillate at their fundamental frequency (or natural frequency) and this is what you feel shaking the drivetrain. As the drive is fully taken-up, the torque loading on the drive springs stops the oscillation and all is then normal...until the next pull away when it may be good, or juddery depending on whether another hotspot is made or the previous one hasn't fully dissipated (ie if chugging along in traffic).

The software upgrade really pi$$ed me off. Crap idea, and BMW should be ashamed...as Joe says, it just results in owners' clutches wearing quicker due to the higher slipping rate of the clutch on engagement, and in fact could make the hotspot situation worse as more heat energy is put into the clutch faces. Another thing that pi$$es me off is troubled owners being told by HQ to be more agressive with the throttle WHAT! THE! FLIP! I can drive mine all day in the same manner and may get no judder, or sometimes, for no change in driving style, I get a dose.

Now Joe has spilt the beans on the N47 DMF mod, I can 'fess that I know of this, and I know 2 of our D3BT owners have the new clutch assembly, and a 3rd is investigating exchange. I kept quiet (I promised elsewhere that I would until it became public knowledge to allow Alpina owners a clear-ish run at the limited supply of new parts, else every man and dog with a BMW will be in the front of the queue), but have privately tipped-off concerned Alpina owners as necessary. I must add, mine is not modified, so I gained nothing from holding back the information.

The whole DMF experience has been poor for those of us affected by it, and I think BMW have been very lacking in their management of the situation since day 1.

My guess is those owners with the new N47 DMF assembly will add their thoughts to this when they see it. I understand the upgrade is rather successful if a little late arriving :wink:

Next.....
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Post by Hodge » Wed May 09, 2012 7:12 pm

Great write ups from you and Joe, just wanted to empathise with Joe's feelings of disappointment every time it happens, I had a similar fault in a Golf, and that completely overshadowed my ownership, every time it intermittently happened I could have gladly set fire to the car or given it to charity. It doesn't matter how excellent everything else is, it only takes a small repetitive fault to ruin the whole experience. Sadly the Golf had to go, after I might add having the tickover fix carried out.

So commiserations to all with this as i am not sure I could stomach it

Hope Ades 'fix story' comes thru to all :cry:

Cheers
Mark Hodge

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Post by Chas » Wed May 09, 2012 7:25 pm

I've said it before but BMW have had this issue for over 20 years. It happened infrequently in my '92 E36 320i coupe and it was a real shocker when it did.

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 7:38 pm

Hodge wrote:Great write ups from you and Joe, just wanted to empathise with Joe's feelings of disappointment every time it happens, I had a similar fault in a Golf, and that completely overshadowed my ownership, every time it intermittently happened I could have gladly set fire to the car or given it to charity. It doesn't matter how excellent everything else is, it only takes a small repetitive fault to ruin the whole experience. Sadly the Golf had to go, after I might add having the tickover fix carried out.

So commiserations to all with this as i am not sure I could stomach it

Hope Ades 'fix story' comes thru to all :cry:
I admit I get a bit miffed at mine when it decides to play silly beggars, so indeed I empathise with anyone living with the annoyance. Thankfully it's quite rare hence my decision to stay as-is and let others claim the new DMF's available as mine is a recorded fault....I'm just hoping that should the worst happen and I get a cracked flywheel, Matt remembers all of our previous conversations :roll: If he doesn't, I'll just roll-out the emails.... :wink:

The only really bad incident I have had was whilst waiting to turn right whilst heading up a steep hill, a friendly bus driver called me across his lane. I let out the clutch, got the bite, disengaged the handbrake...and it juddered so bad it stalled :oops: Now that was bad enough, but trying to restart a stalled push-button stop/start car takes a bit of thinking about (gotta love key-operated ignitions) and it took me 10-15 seconds more to get her going and pull away (juddering as she went) with the bus driver now giving me the well-known hand gesture rhyming with banker. Now if I'd stalled across the lane and he'd been still moving after calling me out......may have been very embarrassing. So, what I'm saying is that in essence there is also a safety issue with this problem.

In addition to Chas's comment, our Roadster also has a minor case of it; but NOWHERE near as bad as the E9x issues. It's just that I'm tuned-in to it and feel it more as a 'lumpy' bite at times in 1st. I can live with that one, though.
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Previously loved:
ALPINA: E91 B3SBiturbo #127, E92 B3SBiturbo #285, E90 D3Biturbo #097, E85 Roadster S #168 & variety of 'beige' 4 and 6-cyl BMW lumps.
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Post by mika » Wed May 09, 2012 9:02 pm

sorry if this is a very silly question

does this only happen on manual gearboxes?

dep
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Post by dep » Wed May 09, 2012 9:05 pm

Ade, it was noticeable from the passenger seat in Rhader reversing in to that parking space!

Sadly as it has been said its a problem across brands though thankfully we haven't seen to many of recent through our Vauxhall dealership.

Best of luck with your resolution. From the otherside of the dealer ship it's not very pleasant telling a customer that we have to remove the DMF for inspection. We have strict guidlines as to what is a warranty fault & what is abuse. Thankfully not seen one declined yet
Lee
Current: 2015 F31 320d M Sport - Glacier Silver
Ex: 2008 E90 Alpina D3 #597 - Black Sapphire
Ex: 2003 E46 BMW 330i Sport - Orient Blue
Ex: 1997 E36 BMW 318i Sport - Boston Green

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 9:14 pm

mika wrote:sorry if this is a very silly question

does this only happen on manual gearboxes?
Not silly at all. Manual-only, and not confined to BMW.

@ Lee.....that's the worst one I've had in months :lol: Trust you to be sat there when it did it, though :oops:
Current:
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Previously loved:
ALPINA: E91 B3SBiturbo #127, E92 B3SBiturbo #285, E90 D3Biturbo #097, E85 Roadster S #168 & variety of 'beige' 4 and 6-cyl BMW lumps.
PORSCHE: Macan S, Cayman 981 S, Cayman 981 GTS

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Post by mika » Wed May 09, 2012 9:20 pm

thanks once again Ade

weve had several BMW's

330i saloon not present
320i touring did it
116i doing it

all manual -

the future for me is auto
the judder on the 116i is very minor but i dont drive it often

ive not noticed it on other makes

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 9:36 pm

mika wrote:thanks once again Ade

weve had several BMW's

330i saloon not present
320i touring did it
116i doing it

all manual -

the future for me is auto
the judder on the 116i is very minor but i dont drive it often

ive not noticed it on other makes
NP.

Dep works for Vauxhall, and you can see his comments above. All the other major manufacturers have their ills with DMF's, too. DMF's were mainly intended to reduce harshness in diesels, but they've stuck them in everything, it seems, and introduced another irritation :?
Current:
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Previously loved:
ALPINA: E91 B3SBiturbo #127, E92 B3SBiturbo #285, E90 D3Biturbo #097, E85 Roadster S #168 & variety of 'beige' 4 and 6-cyl BMW lumps.
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Post by dep » Wed May 09, 2012 10:35 pm

My apologies didn't want to scare anyone off. I was just trying I highlight that it is an industry wise issue not confined to the BMW range nor Alpina.

When I worked at VW all Mark 5 golfs were recalled at great expense for DMF's! 5.5 hours labour plus the DMF you can imagine the cost is painful!

I believe the DMF's are only fitted to diesel vehicles (Vauxhall range anyway) as Ade mentions due to vibration & drivability. I had a TDi Bora running a remap which after I mapped had vibration issues with the DMF but then the map did give it a great big dollop of extra torque. But it was never an issue and the girlfriend who shared the car with me never noticed.

The sad fact is with each brand they have issues. For VW & Vauxhall it's common place to change ignition cool under warranty on their small petrol engines under warranty. Both Vauxhall & BMW have problems with induction mainifolds on their TDi engines. Vauxhall have a major problem with one type of gearbox which is proving very scary!

I think if your going to buy a vehicle as long as youve done your research and know what to expect as least you can prepare. No vehicle is without its faults
Lee
Current: 2015 F31 320d M Sport - Glacier Silver
Ex: 2008 E90 Alpina D3 #597 - Black Sapphire
Ex: 2003 E46 BMW 330i Sport - Orient Blue
Ex: 1997 E36 BMW 318i Sport - Boston Green

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 11:16 pm

dep wrote:I believe the DMF's are only fitted to diesel vehicles (Vauxhall range anyway) as Ade mentions due to vibration & drivability. I had a TDi Bora running a remap which after I mapped had vibration issues with the DMF but then the map did give it a great big dollop of extra torque. But it was never an issue and the girlfriend who shared the car with me never noticed.
I would suggest your problem there is the extra engine torque it produced fully compressed the drive springs, therefore transmitting the engine vibration they're designed to isolate. It's one of the reasons I'm a touch wary of anyone uprating the power output of a D3...the DMF is already at its maximum load-point, and overloading it is not a smart idea as the springs won't last long at all in that overload condition.
Current:
23MY Porsche Macan GTS in Papaya
23MY Cupra Born V3 77kW in Aurora

Previously loved:
ALPINA: E91 B3SBiturbo #127, E92 B3SBiturbo #285, E90 D3Biturbo #097, E85 Roadster S #168 & variety of 'beige' 4 and 6-cyl BMW lumps.
PORSCHE: Macan S, Cayman 981 S, Cayman 981 GTS

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Post by dep » Wed May 09, 2012 11:36 pm

I quite agree. That's why in the VW tuning world they are moving back to installing single mass flywheels.

This is in general the problem with tuning. My dads Discovery 3 TDI was mapped at the dealership pre delivery and at 80k the automatic gearbox let go. A massive job and it could be suggested that a sustaintial map could be to blame. Hard to say. But there is some reasoning why cars leave the factory the way they are.

That said we have an interesting situation with Vauxhall at the moment. It's most popular gearbox is the M32 6 speed box fitted to Astra H 1.9CDTI & VXR models. We have changed 4 in this last month for 1.9 tdi models. Yet not one on the more powerful, more aggressive and arguably harder driven VXR model we've not changed one yet! How odd
Lee
Current: 2015 F31 320d M Sport - Glacier Silver
Ex: 2008 E90 Alpina D3 #597 - Black Sapphire
Ex: 2003 E46 BMW 330i Sport - Orient Blue
Ex: 1997 E36 BMW 318i Sport - Boston Green

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Post by ade and liz flint » Wed May 09, 2012 11:43 pm

dep wrote:That said we have an interesting situation with Vauxhall at the moment. It's most popular gearbox is the M32 6 speed box fitted to Astra H 1.9CDTI & VXR models. We have changed 4 in this last month for 1.9 tdi models. Yet not one on the more powerful, more aggressive and arguably harder driven VXR model we've not changed one yet! How odd
That sounds vibration-related due to the different firing on the 2 engines - assuming the VXR is petrol?? Diesels inject far more vibration harmonics into the drivetrain, so if one of those harmonics matches that of a gearbox component, bingo...failure. The petrol will have fewer harmonics, so is less troublesome in this respect.

Sorry if I'm droning on, and on about vibration :oops:

BTW, those tuning boys have the right idea...although it may get noisy in the cockpit and could bring other issues too.
Current:
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23MY Cupra Born V3 77kW in Aurora

Previously loved:
ALPINA: E91 B3SBiturbo #127, E92 B3SBiturbo #285, E90 D3Biturbo #097, E85 Roadster S #168 & variety of 'beige' 4 and 6-cyl BMW lumps.
PORSCHE: Macan S, Cayman 981 S, Cayman 981 GTS

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Post by chrisbin » Thu May 10, 2012 12:55 pm

Hmmm....

Well I can confess that mine has been "done"..and, so far, its :)

But....I heard from a friend (who actually tipped me off about the new fix) who had his X1 done, that his started juddering again after about 10k miles.... :cry:

So....we shall see....

I was firmly in the same camp as Ade with regard to the software "fix" - no way was I ever having that done.

I was very disappointed that it took some determined digging on my part to find out about the new clutch assembly (despite having been in touch with Alpina direct in the past regarding this issue), and then taking it up with Nottingham and the local dealers...

Local dealers claimed it was first one they had done, but in fairness were very open about the software solution being a waste of time...

I can only encourage anyone who is experiencing the issue to contact Matt @ Nottingham and take it from there.

I hear what people are saying re. it being industry-wide but having had a number of occassions similar to that described by Ade - doesn't help that South Wales is a bit hilly - I have to say that what may be deemed as acceptable on a Golf/Astra really isn't on a BMW, let alone Alpina....if they really can't resolve the issue then they shouldn't be producing the cars.

Next time I will definitely be back in an auto...

hth
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