Performance Gains in 5 years
Performance Gains in 5 years
I was flicking through Autocar last night, reading about the 335i convertible (302bhp/295lbft), the new M3 (410/???), the RS4 Avant (414/317) and thinking about my new B3 (360/375)
First thoughts centred on how quick the B3 is going to be - particularly mid-range - against the RS4 for example.
Then I started thinking about how far engine development and performance has come in recent years - big hikes in performance BUT big improvemnts in consumption and emissions relatively.
Then I started thinking about how today's cars stack up against supercars from a few years ago. Given my experience last year with a Ferrari 360 Modena (my mate's car) I looked at the stats - (400/275).
Taking weight into account (and this rather surprised me because I thought that there would be a much bigger difference) the Ferrari is 1447kg against the new B3 Touring at 1550kg. This means that my new car is likely to deliver performances similar to a Ferrari from 5 years ago.
Startling, I think you'll agree
The point of my ramblings - apart from drooling over the prospect of outrunning my mate in an Estate car (no doubt he'll change his car before he allows that to happen) is to muse over how much further engine developers can go.
So my question to you all is this:
What are the boundaries of the development envelope - particularly for mainstream cars?
First thoughts centred on how quick the B3 is going to be - particularly mid-range - against the RS4 for example.
Then I started thinking about how far engine development and performance has come in recent years - big hikes in performance BUT big improvemnts in consumption and emissions relatively.
Then I started thinking about how today's cars stack up against supercars from a few years ago. Given my experience last year with a Ferrari 360 Modena (my mate's car) I looked at the stats - (400/275).
Taking weight into account (and this rather surprised me because I thought that there would be a much bigger difference) the Ferrari is 1447kg against the new B3 Touring at 1550kg. This means that my new car is likely to deliver performances similar to a Ferrari from 5 years ago.
Startling, I think you'll agree
The point of my ramblings - apart from drooling over the prospect of outrunning my mate in an Estate car (no doubt he'll change his car before he allows that to happen) is to muse over how much further engine developers can go.
So my question to you all is this:
What are the boundaries of the development envelope - particularly for mainstream cars?
Charles
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
I think it is fair to say that with the trouble VW went to to get the Veyron to work, that engine probably represents the outer limits of physics vs the internal combustion engine.
I think where we will see the biggest advances is probably not with outright power, but with economy and emissions (because more pressure will be put on them by regulation). Having put on weight for years, manufacturers seem to be putting more effort into making cars lighter- e.g. bmw with the plastic front wings on the 3 series coupe. Expect to see more mainstream use of composites I reckon, along the old "for speed add lightness" lines.
Also, the servicing costs of mainstream performance cars will become lower- major services for the latest 380bhp 997 are 48,000 miles, with minor services every 15k and that cost peanuts. This compares to the regular £2k-£3k bills enjoyed by a Ferrari owner for routine work for no particular performance benefit.
What is scary is the advance of the deeezel. For the first time the other day, I thought "that sounded surprisingly nice" when an X5 3.0d gunned it out of an exit as I was walking past. A well sorted diesel can create mid-range grunt that would humble even the new B3 I reckon. I certainly suspect that there would be a disappointingly small gulf between the D3 and my B3S in the real world.
I was still amused to read that at Porsche's head office, anyone who turns up in a car with a diesel engine is not allowed to park in the company car parks!
I think where we will see the biggest advances is probably not with outright power, but with economy and emissions (because more pressure will be put on them by regulation). Having put on weight for years, manufacturers seem to be putting more effort into making cars lighter- e.g. bmw with the plastic front wings on the 3 series coupe. Expect to see more mainstream use of composites I reckon, along the old "for speed add lightness" lines.
Also, the servicing costs of mainstream performance cars will become lower- major services for the latest 380bhp 997 are 48,000 miles, with minor services every 15k and that cost peanuts. This compares to the regular £2k-£3k bills enjoyed by a Ferrari owner for routine work for no particular performance benefit.
What is scary is the advance of the deeezel. For the first time the other day, I thought "that sounded surprisingly nice" when an X5 3.0d gunned it out of an exit as I was walking past. A well sorted diesel can create mid-range grunt that would humble even the new B3 I reckon. I certainly suspect that there would be a disappointingly small gulf between the D3 and my B3S in the real world.
I was still amused to read that at Porsche's head office, anyone who turns up in a car with a diesel engine is not allowed to park in the company car parks!
Robert
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
It's true - what I find astonishing is that my B5 (500+hp) can get roughly the same fuel economy as my 840Ci (283hp), using a modernised and supercharged version of essentially the same motor!
Electronics are a major element here, I suspect.
I'd agree that, in the future, we're less likely to see massive power increases at the top end - fast cars are already getting too fast to be safe in normal use - but hopefully we'll start to see much lighter and more efficient cars, although new safety regs make this harder all the time.
Take the M6, for example - lovely car, but imagine that engine in a package that was 500kg lighter! Hey, even the fuel economy might not be half bad...
Electronics are a major element here, I suspect.
I'd agree that, in the future, we're less likely to see massive power increases at the top end - fast cars are already getting too fast to be safe in normal use - but hopefully we'll start to see much lighter and more efficient cars, although new safety regs make this harder all the time.
Take the M6, for example - lovely car, but imagine that engine in a package that was 500kg lighter! Hey, even the fuel economy might not be half bad...
2016 D3 #296
2012 Range Rover
Former:
2005 B5 Touring #007
1996 B8 4.6 Touring #014
2011 1M Coupe
2012 Range Rover
Former:
2005 B5 Touring #007
1996 B8 4.6 Touring #014
2011 1M Coupe
It won't be long before Porsche go down the diesel route - for the Cayenne's at least.
Audi have shown that diesels win at Le Mans and this year Peugeot are entering that particular arena. From a purists point of view, they don't sound the same on the track, but performance-wise, you can't argue with it.
Furthermore, Porsche have taken a large stake in VW and it would be madness for them not to take advantage of developed diesel technology if it is on the shelf and available to them at minimal R&D investment.
In fact, I was chatting to someone yesterday who has a 335d that has been reprogrammed by DMS and he claims in excess of 500lbft and 38mpg
You could argue why should anyone get a petrol engined car - now that diesel performance is making such gains. It's a personal thing, but I do like the sound of revs in the 5-7000 range, whereas with a diesel it runs out of puff at 5000 rpm. And also, like Porsche, I am a purist at heart from the old school of motorsport.
The head clearly says diesel, but the heart wins everytime. Life's too short to worry too much about fuel economy - 38mpg vs 25mpg for example. My wife disagrees (she's an accountant) but it's my car
Audi have shown that diesels win at Le Mans and this year Peugeot are entering that particular arena. From a purists point of view, they don't sound the same on the track, but performance-wise, you can't argue with it.
Furthermore, Porsche have taken a large stake in VW and it would be madness for them not to take advantage of developed diesel technology if it is on the shelf and available to them at minimal R&D investment.
In fact, I was chatting to someone yesterday who has a 335d that has been reprogrammed by DMS and he claims in excess of 500lbft and 38mpg
You could argue why should anyone get a petrol engined car - now that diesel performance is making such gains. It's a personal thing, but I do like the sound of revs in the 5-7000 range, whereas with a diesel it runs out of puff at 5000 rpm. And also, like Porsche, I am a purist at heart from the old school of motorsport.
The head clearly says diesel, but the heart wins everytime. Life's too short to worry too much about fuel economy - 38mpg vs 25mpg for example. My wife disagrees (she's an accountant) but it's my car
Charles
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
I think we are more likely to see a hybrid Cayenne first rather than diesel, because this will appeal far more to the burgeoning US Hollywood 'eco' crowd (i.e. a pointless marketing excercise with no real environmental benefit over a sorted IC equivalent, but it means Tom Hanks can drive one with a clear conscience).
I remember being amazed by the fuel economy on my E36 M3 Evo- it used to return well over 30 mpg on a run to the in-laws in Wales, despite the excellent performance. I was disappointed that I could rarely get more than 28 out of the XK8 which followed it, despite it being slower and less powerful.
I'm with you on diesels Charles, just because I love the noise. It is however getting increasingly difficult to come up with any other rational argument not to go derv.
I remember being amazed by the fuel economy on my E36 M3 Evo- it used to return well over 30 mpg on a run to the in-laws in Wales, despite the excellent performance. I was disappointed that I could rarely get more than 28 out of the XK8 which followed it, despite it being slower and less powerful.
I'm with you on diesels Charles, just because I love the noise. It is however getting increasingly difficult to come up with any other rational argument not to go derv.
Robert
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
It's stickyRobertb wrote:I'm with you on diesels Charles, just because I love the noise. It is however getting increasingly difficult to come up with any other rational argument not to go derv.
It smells funny
It's not as good as petrol when lighting the bonfire/BBQ etc
It goes in lorries and trains
That enough for you
Charles
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
OT, but the thing that really narks me off about diesel is when someone who visited the filling pump before you has sloshed it all over the floor, so you unwittingly get it onto your shoes, into the interior of your car etc.
Banish the deeezel pump to the outer reaches of the petrol station, just like they used to be.
Banish the deeezel pump to the outer reaches of the petrol station, just like they used to be.
Robert
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
Alpina B3S Cabrio build number 250/288, Titan silver/Imola red. Now with winter hard top!
I am a young man and if diesel is the future i will resort back to a push bike i cant stand them.the noise the smell is enough to put anyone of.You just cant beat the petrol roar of the V8 "well my V8 "
current cars:
E39 528i touring Auto
Come on you GUNNERS
previous Beemers:
E39 Alpina B10 V8 THE BEAST: :auto
Mods. GRuppe M CAI.
E34 520i Touring: Manual.
E39 530i sport:Auto.
E39 M5:Manual.
E39 Alpina B10 V8:Auto.
E46 320i coupe:Auto.
E36 318i se saloon:Manual.
E30 320i coupe:Manual.
E53 4.8is exclusive addition.
E46 325i Manual Touring
E39 528i touring Auto
Come on you GUNNERS
previous Beemers:
E39 Alpina B10 V8 THE BEAST: :auto
Mods. GRuppe M CAI.
E34 520i Touring: Manual.
E39 530i sport:Auto.
E39 M5:Manual.
E39 Alpina B10 V8:Auto.
E46 320i coupe:Auto.
E36 318i se saloon:Manual.
E30 320i coupe:Manual.
E53 4.8is exclusive addition.
E46 325i Manual Touring
charles as you can see from my signature i've driven very powerful petrol engined cars, and loved every minute of it.
My move to the D3 (as my weekday car) is a compromise. performance vs economy (and loadlugging capabilites)
I currently spend 600quid a month on fuel (petrol), with the d3 that will go down to about 275, something i cant ignore anymore.
i can only see diesel getting more powerful and for everyday driving these cars ARE as fast as the petrol cars.
the only downside for me is the noise and the rattle. However i have a cunning plan, i'm going to buy a M3 CSL for the weekend!!
Steve
My move to the D3 (as my weekday car) is a compromise. performance vs economy (and loadlugging capabilites)
I currently spend 600quid a month on fuel (petrol), with the d3 that will go down to about 275, something i cant ignore anymore.
i can only see diesel getting more powerful and for everyday driving these cars ARE as fast as the petrol cars.
the only downside for me is the noise and the rattle. However i have a cunning plan, i'm going to buy a M3 CSL for the weekend!!
Steve
RS4 Saloon 2007 Daytona Grey
M6 Coupe Indianapolis Red
ML420CDI Sport
M6 Coupe Indianapolis Red
ML420CDI Sport
I like diesels or should I say modern ones. I do feel that an automatic gearbox is better suited to a diesel because both require low-down torque. In my previous company car (Ford Focus 1.8 diesel) I could keep up with a 328 or even get ahead without too much driving effort. Once example was with an E36 328 with a boot spoiler the same height as Carney Wharf, no matter what he did I just outwitted him because of the low-down torque of the engine. However if the driver of the 328 had skill then no matter what I did he would have embarrassed me.
The Ford Focus diesel setup is peculiar because the clutch is an original Mondeo unit and the engine comes from a Volvo. At low revs these are extremely easy to stall. Ford service centre once said to me: â€Everyone stall these cars!â€.
I believe in 1993 the BMW 2.5 diesel engine was voted to be the one of the best in the world.
The person that invented the diesel was told until the day he died, that ‘diesels are inferior and the only use from them are the scrapheap, and will never be a main production engine’. How wrong can some people be? For example the new BMW 335 diesel
The Ford Focus diesel setup is peculiar because the clutch is an original Mondeo unit and the engine comes from a Volvo. At low revs these are extremely easy to stall. Ford service centre once said to me: â€Everyone stall these cars!â€.
I believe in 1993 the BMW 2.5 diesel engine was voted to be the one of the best in the world.
The person that invented the diesel was told until the day he died, that ‘diesels are inferior and the only use from them are the scrapheap, and will never be a main production engine’. How wrong can some people be? For example the new BMW 335 diesel
Oscar Wilde & Burkard Bovensiepen: I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.
ALPINA B3 3.2 Coupe Switch-Tronic ALPINA Blue
ALPINA B10 3.3 Saloon Manual Mora Metallic
ALPINA B3 3.2 Coupe Switch-Tronic ALPINA Blue
ALPINA B10 3.3 Saloon Manual Mora Metallic
Perhaps my tongue isn't as clearly in my cheek as it needs to be.
Don't get me wrong - I agree that diesel performance has made huge gains and in normal driving conditions there are clealry few compromises and several financial gains from running a diesel.
Originally, this thread started out looking at engine development and the gains being achieved in short spaces of time - diesel engine technology is the same.
255km/h and impressive midrange oomph from a D3 Touring on our visit to Buchloe is testament to that. It's just a personal and emotional decision to stick with petrol for me.
Check my signature - my other car's a diesel
Don't get me wrong - I agree that diesel performance has made huge gains and in normal driving conditions there are clealry few compromises and several financial gains from running a diesel.
Originally, this thread started out looking at engine development and the gains being achieved in short spaces of time - diesel engine technology is the same.
255km/h and impressive midrange oomph from a D3 Touring on our visit to Buchloe is testament to that. It's just a personal and emotional decision to stick with petrol for me.
Check my signature - my other car's a diesel
Charles
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!