Scottish Independence Yes or No

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Scotland Independence

 
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Post by E24man » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:19 pm

JASV8S wrote:As far as I am aware Scotland could continue to use sterling as a currency and Westminster could not stop that, but there would be no fiscal autonomy for Scotland and that is where the argument about sharing the pound is based. If Westminster refused to share the pound then Scotland would continue to use it until phasing it out after introducing a new currency. The only plan B. In fact Scotland could continue to accept the pound as legel tender to make it easy for the rest of the UK to transact whilst visiting - similar to some other countries.

There are other currencies out there and it was not that long ago there were many different ones in Europe without any real issues. I just think too much of a big deal is being made of this as a show stopper.
The problem with using the pound (or any currency) without direct links to the Bank that issues it is quite complex;

1. If you continue to use the UK pound without a Bank directly backing it and then start running out of it, you can't issue any more, or even borrow any more as you don't have responsibility for it.
2. You create an unground illicit currency with a two tier pricing structure based on your actual legal tender and whichever you are 'borrowing'
3. Who underwrites your Government debts and in which currency? If the Traders in your country prefer the borrowed currency they're very unlikely to use, pay tax on or favour using the legal tender.

If you don't believe any of this then you haven't travelled to any of the countries that struggle with their own currency value and then have an underground US Dollar currency market which further destabilises the legal tender.
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Post by TopCat » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:48 pm

I have many chums in my home town of Inverness- interesting their take on things
1 They are now refusing scottish notes- happy with english £50s for any cash deals as they don't want to be stuck with them post ScOut
2 Law firms in Inverness are being asked to set up English/welsh companies rather than scottish ones for their Inverness based clients

It is also amazing that of the 7 largest Scottish firms all but 1 has said that they have contingency plans to move HQ south in event of ScOut

The Ch Isles certainly have their problems (as does the IOM) but at least the IOM has VAT sharing with UK. as well as a positive bank balance and as the fastest growing western democracy (grew by 4.5% last year) a number of significant advantages over ScOut.

Iom and Ch Isles have own currencies which are 1:1 linked to Sterling- just as Alex would like - but crown dependencies have no say in sterling as would happen to ScOut if Alex decided to use sterling.

If fact Alex S is so keen on the IOM approach he is often here liaising etc (and charging £37.50 per ticket to listen to him) not many takers there................

Selfishly I can see 1 possible advantage to ScOut- I could spend more than my 90 days on the mainland!
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Post by E24man » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:45 am

TopCat wrote: 1 They are now refusing scottish notes- happy with english £50s for any cash deals as they don't want to be stuck with them post ScOut
This will be the first sign of instant rampant inflation - a two tier pricing structure based on which pound note you have.

Go to Scotland and see something advertised for £50 Scottish pounds and it will soon cost less than £50 UK pounds; if they take just £45 UK pounds there's 10% inflation straight away.

Same for people coming to the UK with Scottish pounds - anything advertised for £50 UK Pounds will soon cost £55 or £60 Scottish Pounds simply because the currency is undesirable, will cost money to exchange and is liable to inflation almost immediately.

I find it beyond belief that the SNP have no answers to the problems that face them should they gain Independence - and giving 16 year olds the vote, and holding the vote on a saturday is playing to the baying crowd - a crowd that seems to require no more answers than the empty platitudes the SNP offers.

The legacy of the SNP might well be an independent Scotland but the kind of Scotland the SNP is promising could well be very far removed the reality that the newly formed state barrels itself into.......
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Post by TopCat » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:20 am

TopCat wrote:I
Iom and Ch Isles have own currencies which are 1:1 linked to Sterling- just as Alex would like - but crown dependencies have no say in sterling as would happen to ScOut if Alex decided to use sterling.
!
Apropos that last post
our Isle of Man £ s are completely unacceptable to anyone on UK mainland- something to do with the wording which lacks "sterling"

of course one can always chnage them 1:1 at the airport- the Travellex lady at LCity Airport looks very grumpy when asked to xchnange Manx £s!
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Post by JASV8S » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:13 pm

I was in Inverness for the weekend two weeks ago and no issues with Scottish notes. Never heard any such rubbish as not accepting Scottish notes.
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Post by Chas » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:59 pm

I'm not Salmond's biggest fan but I intrinsically have more respect for a public servant who has experience of the real world than the multitude of career-politicians who don't. Wee Eck is an economist who spent time working for RBS in Aberdeen. His is not necessarily the best CV in the world but he knows the score. Osborne and his Etonian mates have never had a proper job in their lives.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to WHY westminster says no to Scotland using Sterling. It's a politically motivated response from a govenment on the back foot. The same can be said of the EU partners who are sticking their oar in, clearly at the request of the UK government.

Incidentally, I don't think currency will be an issue at all. Scotland would in any case have a stockpile of English notes thanks to all the oil, gas, wind, and water that we'd be selling across the border :lol:

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Post by E24man » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:19 pm

Chas wrote:
I'm still waiting for an answer as to WHY westminster says no to Scotland using Sterling. It's a politically motivated response from a govenment on the back foot. The same can be said of the EU partners who are sticking their oar in, clearly at the request of the UK government.
Westminster says No to an Independent Scotland using the UK Pound for a very simple reason - by being the underwriter of the UK pound Westminster and the Bank of England is responsible for it's use, distribution, loans and payments thereof.

A simple but very accurate analogy is that if you were to get divorced your ex-wife suddenly demands a credit card that you, and not she, are ultimately responsible for.

Would you allow that? How would she react to be told there limits on what she could spend and where she could spend it? If she did incur debts but ultimately you were the person responsible for repaying the debt - would you willingly accept it and pay the debts?

The answer is very simple and clear and there is no conspiracy or political motivation - it is a simple statement that the UK will not, cannot, underwrite the debts of another separate Sovereign Nation - the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are beholden to the pound and the demands placed upon them by Westminster but quite simply they accept that and an Independent Scotland would not and morally perhaps should not.

I've already explained the reason why the EU won't see a simple admission of Scotland into the EU - it's Charter clearly states a unanimous agreement of all member Nations and Spain will never do that as will not want to set a precedent for the Basque Region - that is their right and their Political standpoint and not influenced by Westminster or any other EU Member Governments.

It's to the SNP's shame that they haven't thought through all these things in the many years that they've been planning this vote.

Salmond's shame should be deeper as an economist and his involvement with RBS shows his judgement on these issues.

Please don't think I have an opinion either way on Scottish Independence - my only strong opinions on the entire affair are the way the Voters on the issue are being led down a path with no clear answers as to what happens if they do vote yes

Can anyone who is intending to vote yes give clear answers on currency, EU membership, border control, shipbuilding and financial industry concerns, and the true cost of the financial promises that the SNP are making?

The SNP clearly can't and just continue to mislead the voters that the EU and UK Government will back down, break their own charters and rules to accommodate your membership and underwrite the life of luxury the SNP agenda is promising you all.

I would happily see Scotland stay in the Union, or gain full Independence - just do one or the other with full conviction and commitment, and without the bonds that the SNP say currently hold you back...... and that other people say might actually be supporting you.

There should be no room for a half way house in the argument - either stay or go - it is like a divorce and the SNP are asking Scottish residents whether they want one - once the answer is yes, the relationship is broken and on the route to being dissolved and both parties should head their separate ways with all ties cleanly broken.
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Post by PerryGunn » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:53 pm

E24man wrote:Westminster says No to an Independent Scotland using the UK Pound for a very simple reason - by being the underwriter of the UK pound Westminster and the Bank of England is responsible for it's use, distribution, loans and payments thereof.

A simple but very accurate analogy is that if you were to get divorced your ex-wife suddenly demands a credit card that you, and not she, are ultimately responsible for.

Would you allow that? How would she react to be told there limits on what she could spend and where she could spend it? If she did incur debts but ultimately you were the person responsible for repaying the debt - would you willingly accept it and pay the debts?

The answer is very simple and clear and there is no conspiracy or political motivation - it is a simple statement that the UK will not, cannot, underwrite the debts of another separate Sovereign Nation - the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are beholden to the pound and the demands placed upon them by Westminster but quite simply they accept that and an Independent Scotland would not and morally perhaps should not.

I've already explained the reason why the EU won't see a simple admission of Scotland into the EU - it's Charter clearly states a unanimous agreement of all member Nations and Spain will never do that as will not want to set a precedent for the Basque Region - that is their right and their Political standpoint and not influenced by Westminster or any other EU Member Governments.

It's to the SNP's shame that they haven't thought through all these things in the many years that they've been planning this vote.

Salmond's shame should be deeper as an economist and his involvement with RBS shows his judgement on these issues.

Please don't think I have an opinion either way on Scottish Independence - my only strong opinions on the entire affair are the way the Voters on the issue are being led down a path with no clear answers as to what happens if they do vote yes

Can anyone who is intending to vote yes give clear answers on currency, EU membership, border control, shipbuilding and financial industry concerns, and the true cost of the financial promises that the SNP are making?

The SNP clearly can't and just continue to mislead the voters that the EU and UK Government will back down, break their own charters and rules to accommodate your membership and underwrite the life of luxury the SNP agenda is promising you all.

I would happily see Scotland stay in the Union, or gain full Independence - just do one or the other with full conviction and commitment, and without the bonds that the SNP say currently hold you back...... and that other people say might actually be supporting you.

There should be no room for a half way house in the argument - either stay or go - it is like a divorce and the SNP are asking Scottish residents whether they want one - once the answer is yes, the relationship is broken and on the route to being dissolved and both parties should head their separate ways with all ties cleanly broken.
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Post by E24man » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:08 pm

I'm sorry to disagree a little with you Perry but after re-reading it I don't think it's terribly well said but it is quite logicallly laid out - and this to my mind highlights what's wrong with the SNP campaign.

They have had decades to prepare for this situation, literally decades when they could have done some preparation for the justifiable questions that should be asked when the question of Independence is placed before the public.

But the SNP's answers to these questions are pitifully thin and in many cases deliberately misleading to the Scottish residents who have the right to vote on this incredibly important issue. There simply is no substance or logic to the answers they give against the points that key people are making and the serious questions they are asking.

Personally I think it suspends belief that 16 and 17 year olds have been invited to vote on this issue - in 99% of cases they simply do not have the understanding to start comprehending the implications of the decision they have been asked to make. The implications for future generations of Scots from a Yes vote are simply too complex for most 16 and 17 year olds to take in; they know nothing of the connections that held the UK together, they know nothing about the limits of North Sea Oil reserves, they know nothing of the complex issues of the currency decisions that the country will face, they know nothing of the complex business arrangements that jeopardise the position and jobs of a lot of Scottish based companies, they know nothing of the implications of not being a member of the EU or even being a member of the EU - on the small occasions that they do know something about any of the above issues it is highly likely that it is the anti-British propaganda thickly spread by the SNP and it's supporters.

It really seems like that the younger generation of Scottish residents who will vote on this issue are being set up to be the scapegoats if, or perhaps when, the implications and effects of a Yes vote start to hit home.

This is a huge decision that could very well irreversibly change the future of Scotland - once bonds are broken there might be no going back and instead of a solid plan that addresses the incredibly important issues that cannot be avoided, the electorate are being spoon fed anti-British, anti-EU, anti-anything-that-isn't-SNP diatribe to pull at their nationalist heart-strings and further stoke the ABE feelings.

Opinion and interest on the Scottish vote is now growing in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and with the revelation of some of the key and more interesting fiscal facts there is a growing feeling that perhaps, if the Scottish voting public do want out of the Union, the rest of the Union might actually be better off without including and supporting Scotland....

..... it could well turn out to be a case of, "Be careful what you wish for...."

Again, these are not specifically my opinions but they are a commentary on what is being thought and discussed around the UK - if the SNP and their supporters hadn't decided on such a visceral and aggresive anti-British stance then perhaps the feelings of the rest of Britains wouldn't be thinking in such a way.

If the argument for Independence had been delivered on a clear plan based on indisputable facts then perhaps there would be no need for the anti-everything diatribe and people should be well-informed enough to make the decision with clarity and good judgement.

Edit for speelings and grammer init
Last edited by E24man on Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TopCat » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:54 pm

JASV8S wrote:I was in Inverness for the weekend two weeks ago and no issues with Scottish notes. Never heard any such rubbish as not accepting Scottish notes.
Fine at the moment for small amounts- that you are unlikely to have in large quantities after 18 Sept!
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Post by Chas » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:44 pm

The SNP's campaign is not the point of the discussion. It's about whether or not Scotland should be an independent country. Lets not forget that the SNP would not be forming a government in the event of a Yes vote. Even if the SNP won a majority in national elections, they would not form a government. The SNP is actually disbanded in the event of Scottish independence :!:

I'm tired of hearing that we can't do it or shouldn't do it by those who have a vested interest (outside Scotland). I'm heartily sick of our national agenda being dictated from Westminster; of our country being percieved internationally as a non-country. We are not a Basque Region or even a Quebec. If you look at a list of countries in the world we don't get a mention. Only our sporting teams provide representation internationally (even if we sometimes wish they didn't).

We share a monarchy along with many other parts of the Commonwealth. Why shouldn't we have the same rights as Australia or New Zealand to govern ourselves? We have a unique history and culture which separates us from our neighbours, but that doesn't mean we can't be good neighbours.

This is not a marriage which requires divorce. It's more akin to a corporate separation where a subsidiary company is hived off from the parent group. The corporate policies and procedures of the UK don't fit our needs. We are better suited to being a separate entity with our own vision and values than being a square peg in the parent companies round hole.

Being independent doesn't mean we can't do business together. It just means we can manage our own affairs more effectively. If that means we need to have our own currency then so be it. But until that is necessary we would go on using Sterling. Everyone who has been through a change in corporate ownership knows there are transitional arrangements and inconveniences but they are always overcome. It's not impossible.

What's very clear from the Better Together campaign is the negativity and scare stories being promoted. Does anyone care to ask why that should be? What would they say if instead they were actually inviting us to give up our independence and be part of the UK ? The truth is that Scotland is providing a disproportionate share into the UK coffers and Westminster doesn't want that to be know almost as much as they don't want to give that up.

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Post by shaziman » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:21 pm

E24man wrote:Westminster says No to an Independent Scotland using the UK Pound for a very simple reason - by being the underwriter of the UK pound Westminster and the Bank of England is responsible for it's use, distribution, loans and payments thereof.

A simple but very accurate analogy is that if you were to get divorced your ex-wife suddenly demands a credit card that you, and not she, are ultimately responsible for.

Would you allow that? How would she react to be told there limits on what she could spend and where she could spend it? If she did incur debts but ultimately you were the person responsible for repaying the debt - would you willingly accept it and pay the debts?
It would also affect the credit rating of the UK and if the independence went wrong, then this would bring down the UK. (Similar to Greece and Spain affecting Germany)
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Post by E24man » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:39 pm

I completely agree that neither Campaign has stood well with lies on one side and worst case scenarios on the other.

Being sick of Westminster and wanting to be Independent is all very well but there are practicalities to overcome and not addressing them would be foolhardy in the extreme. Refusing to recognise that some inevitable changes will happen is akin to putting your head in the sand - you won't be a member of the EU immediately, Companies will (sometimes by force of EU law) move themselves and their jobs to the UK, you won't continue to use the UK Pound without the influence and control of the UK authorties that are responsible for it, you won't have the access to business opportunities that you presently do (MOD procurement, shipbuilding etc). These are all certainties.

Addressing the issues should have been foremost in the planning but hasn't been. Voting for Independence and then expecting the EU and the UK to then break their rules and put themselves at financial risk is simply not a plan. Hoping that everthing will just 'work itself out' is also not a plan.

A corporate separation is just that, a separation. If you want to self-govern then you self-finance. Anything less than that and you remain beholden to the parent company who will require a level of visibility and an ultimate exercise of control and responsibility. A responsible corporation will only set loose a seperate business unit provided it can be proven it has a chance to stand on its own financially. If it does not the new business unit soon becomes bankrupt and there the business analogy ends as far as Scotland is concerned - the tale then turns to examples like Ireland, Greece, Portugal and others.

Scotland may not get a mention in the list of countries in the world but in that same breath neither does England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Being part of the Commonwealth and sharing the Monarchy is a separate decision for both the Commonwealth and Scotland to decide - as a small aside you don't recognise Queen Elizabeth as 'the second' so why would you still support the Monarchy?

'Being good neighbours' is already being eroded as the Campaign gets dirtier and some irrepairable damage may already have been done - a great deal of Scotlands trade is with the rest of the UK and further ill-feeling could greatly damage Scotlands, and Scottish products trade.

Do you honestly believe that Scotland provides a disproportionate share into the UK coffers? Can I ask the source and details of these figures?
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Post by E24man » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:46 pm

shaziman wrote:
E24man wrote:Westminster says No to an Independent Scotland using the UK Pound for a very simple reason - by being the underwriter of the UK pound Westminster and the Bank of England is responsible for it's use, distribution, loans and payments thereof.

A simple but very accurate analogy is that if you were to get divorced your ex-wife suddenly demands a credit card that you, and not she, are ultimately responsible for.

Would you allow that? How would she react to be told there limits on what she could spend and where she could spend it? If she did incur debts but ultimately you were the person responsible for repaying the debt - would you willingly accept it and pay the debts?
It would also affect the credit rating of the UK and if the independence went wrong, then this would bring down the UK. (Similar to Greece and Spain affecting Germany)
This is the one of risks to the UK and given the promises of the SNP campaign there will be a lot of spending and little tax raising. Giving uncontrolled use of your Currency to a separate Country is an unacceptable risk, just see what happened in the Eurozone.
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Post by JASV8S » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:12 pm

One of the issues that I feel is incorrect is that somehow independence is based on an anti-English agenda and as far as I experience in Scotland it is not. I work beside and with many English colleagues and this does not come up in any debate. It appears the vitriol is from the other direction on the basis that we are being anti-English and if we do vote Yes Scotland is bound to fail.

I do not disagree with the arguments that there are a lot issues to be resolved but you either have the confidence that the country can achieve independence or not and vote accordingly. I think Westminster should be thinking that a Yes vote is a failure on their part to ensure regions of the UK are evenly dealt with and this includes regions of England also.

The way London centric politics operate we are seeing the creation of a collapsed empire where London is the equivalent of Great Britain and the rest of the regions are the colonies, ripe for the plunder. It has been happening for some time now.
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