Scottish Independence Yes or No

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Scotland Independence

 
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Scottish Independence Yes or No

Post by TopCat » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:01 pm

Views please!

This has proved to be a very lively debate on another Forum I visit- and since there are a good many Alpinas in Aberdeen - I thought I would start the hare running................................


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Post by Charles » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:39 pm

Do we need to be a Scot living in Scotland who is a paid-up member of the SNP to qualify for a vote?
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Post by Chas » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:55 pm

In reality, Scotland is to the UK what Alpina is to BMW :!: Alpina GmbH is independent of - albeit inter-dependent on - BMW GmbH. That's also reflected in the relationship between Bavaria and the rest of Germany. It's a symbiotic relationship which works well. Germany is well balanced in economic terms with five or six geographic centres of excellence. Bavaria has it's own identity - but it is neither subsidised, nor subsidises, the rest of the country. Sadly that's not the current dynamic on this disparate island.

In common with many other regions of the UK, Scotland is treated as a second-tier subsidiary of a parent company in the south. In fact, the same can be said of many regions of England, particularly in the North. Some such as Liverpool and Newcastle are more probably regarded as third-tier by the south.

This isn't about Scotland v England. It's about the rest of the UK v London. The latter has become a sovereign principality in all but name and is sucking the life and wealth from the rest of the UK. And please don't tell me that London does all the work; that's a complete joke. It's a city of head offices and pen-pushers, many of whom don't have a clue what their businesses actually do. I'm not talking from ignorance. I've spent quite a bit of time there and even worked there for a spell. It was very enlightening.

North of the border we are extremely fortunate in that we have an option to leave that colonial relic behind and forge ahead as a separate nation. I'm desperately sad for our friends north of Watford who don't have that opportunity.

Under the status quo, Scotland is to England what Ghia was to Ford. Something to be sucked dry and then discarded, along with the other marques that Ford aquired along the way.

In some ways it's disappointing that we are geographically joined at the hip. Otherwise we would be no different to Australia, New Zealand, the USA(!), and most of Africa, all of whom have managed to remove themselves from the clutches of Westminster. The Empire is dead; it's time to move on.

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Post by JASV8S » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:29 am

Spot on Chas and great analogy to the motor industry. Recent Guardian article stating for every £5 spent in the north east (England I think) on infrastructure spending £2147 is spent in London. Fair share I don't think so and you are also right about head offices P&L's being declared as London profit when the operations are elsewhere. Oil & Gas industry a good example. YES.
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Post by Deeg » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:53 am

Well said Chas.

I'm still on the fence as such but I am swaying more to a yes vote, I've just started to read the white paper document to get a better understanding.
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Post by Broch » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:49 pm

Of the top 20 oil producing countries in the world, only 2 do not have an Oil Fund- Iraq and the UK.

I recently had to visit the doctor for a small ailment and was given an appointment for 6 weeks time.
Why do we not start charging a fee to see the doctor, stopping all the hypochondria's from chocking the NHS because they don't have anything better to do?

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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No

Post by Chas » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:35 am

TopCat wrote:This has proved to be a very lively debate on another Forum I visit
Hmm! Not on this forum, it would appear. The 'majority' are against independence but they prefer to cast their votes without making any counterpoint. Who are the secret balloters and why do they hide? :roll:

I'm not spoiling for an argument but come on guys... Tell us why we should continue to support one of the most corrupt and self serving institutions on the planet? :think

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Post by JASV8S » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:19 am

Would be good to hear some other views. A vote for the status quo just does not sound an appealing prospect for me.
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Post by PerryGunn » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm

I won't vote because I'm not a Scot - if the people of Scotland want to be independent, so be it!

However, I do feel that they should be pressing Salmond on the currency issue as he really doesn't seem to have a 'Plan B'. Westminster says no shared pound and he says they'll change their mind - what happens if they don't...?
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Post by Chas » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:53 pm

PerryGunn wrote:Westminster says no shared pound
Has anyone actually questioned why Westminster is saying that? :shifty

There's no benefit for the rest of the UK if the government takes that stance on currency - quite the opposite in fact. Sterling would invariably suffer without Scotland's support and anyone doing business across the border would too - both ways.

Personally, I'd rather be free of the fiscal ties created by a shared currency, whether with England or Europe; not through some misguided nationalism but a simple recognition that one size does not fit all. There would certainly be a degree of hassle for Scots to implement a new currency but it's not impossible. After all, it was a Scotsman who founded the Bank of England so we're very capable in that regard :!:

The currency debate is nothing more than scare tactics and I seriously doubt it would be acted upon in the event of independence.

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Post by PerryGunn » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:02 pm

Chas wrote:
PerryGunn wrote:Westminster says no shared pound
Has anyone actually questioned why Westminster is saying that? :shifty

<snip>

The currency debate is nothing more than scare tactics and I seriously doubt it would be acted upon in the event of independence.
With respect, even if you (Scotland) believe that it's just scare tactics - surely you need to have a coherent plan for what would happen if you turn out to be wrong...
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Post by JASV8S » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:16 pm

As far as I am aware Scotland could continue to use sterling as a currency and Westminster could not stop that, but there would be no fiscal autonomy for Scotland and that is where the argument about sharing the pound is based. If Westminster refused to share the pound then Scotland would continue to use it until phasing it out after introducing a new currency. The only plan B. In fact Scotland could continue to accept the pound as legel tender to make it easy for the rest of the UK to transact whilst visiting - similar to some other countries.

There are other currencies out there and it was not that long ago there were many different ones in Europe without any real issues. I just think too much of a big deal is being made of this as a show stopper.
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Scottish Independance

Post by Kentish man » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:57 pm

Come on you Jocks, lets have some sensible arguements and not calling Westminster corrupt...... As fair art thou my bonnie lass
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I love Scotland but some times I despair of your attitude towards us English. We are far better off together.

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Post by MickB3 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:30 pm

I think we are better off together for no other reason than strength in numbers in these un certain times... However if the vote is YES then I hope you do it right and be truly independent and then we can put the wall back up. :whistle
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Post by E24man » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:43 pm

The SNP seem to have no answers to a few key questions regarding EU, currency, and budget.

According to the EU constitution a newly formed State has to request membership with unanimous approval of all current EU states - Spain will never give their approval as they don't want the same to happen with their Basque Region.

The UK pound can't be shared (according to those that really know) without maintaining significant fiscal ties which would cause the Bank of England to exercise control of budgets, tax rates and interest rates. Adoption of the Euro currency only comes with EU membership (see above) and Eurozone inclusion - there are some problems with that too.......

All budgetary estimates have a new Scottish State fulfilling all their benefit, tax and other financial promises running at between a 2 to 4 Billion pound defecit - to actually run any country you need to have a large enough currency base or a large enough Central Bank (such as the Bank of England or European Central Bank) in order to underwrite your imminent debts and extend a line of credit/sell government bonds. Without the ECB or BoE Scotland has no financial backer and will have to borrow money on the open market at far higher rates than the larger Financial Institutions/Established Governments get offered.

As for the rest of the UK benefitting from sharing the pound - I just don't see it personally - if Scotland wants to go it alone and the majority vote for it then so be it but do it fully and break all ties with the rest of the UK; the pound, the Flag, the Monarchy, the full Monty and don't look back.

Finally the SNP are ignoring an awful lot of warning signs from the EU, the rest of the UK (not just Westminster), and many, many businesses about the their lack of answers to all these key questions - for a 50 year old organisation that has wanted this vote since it's inception it has a stunning lack of plans should the vote go their way - 50 years in the planning and they have no Plan B to not being able to use the UK Pound which ALL the rest of the UK Political Parties have said they won't be able to share? It will be an interesting vote and the SNP don't seem to have any concrete plans should the vote go their way.
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